Comments on: 1 Nephi 14–Who Belongs to the Church of the Devil? http://bomgroupies.wordpress.com/2008/01/02/1-nephi-14-who-belongs-to-the-church-of-the-devil/ Perusing, pondering, and pattering about the Book of Mormon Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:36:38 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Charlie http://bomgroupies.wordpress.com/2008/01/02/1-nephi-14-who-belongs-to-the-church-of-the-devil/#comment-1332 Charlie Mon, 17 Aug 2009 12:52:26 +0000 http://bomgroupies.wordpress.com/2008/01/02/1-nephi-14-who-belongs-to-the-church-of-the-devil/#comment-1332 I believe all people that have Christ in their hearts are not of the devil, and that the church is figurative, for a body, or groups of peoples, or organizations. with that being said; we should focus our attention on those groups that have been set up and established for many hundreds of years in order to understand the Church of the devil. for example: Cecil Roads who taught an early form of Marxism is still making an impact on our government officials, as well as the Illuminati, the free Masons, and more recent organizations such as, the Builder-burg group, the counsel on foreign relations, the trilateral commission, the Federal reserve bank, etc. in order to see the head of the snake, we must look at the power structures of the world. Then we can begin to understand the organizations set up by the the devil and his advocates. All of these power structures lead back to Rome, so one could make the blanket statement that the Catholic Church is the great whore of the earth. However, that does not mean all of it's people are of the devil, even though it's organizations may well be. I believe all people that have Christ in their hearts are not of the devil, and that the church is figurative, for a body, or groups of peoples, or organizations. with that being said; we should focus our attention on those groups that have been set up and established for many hundreds of years in order to understand the Church of the devil. for example: Cecil Roads who taught an early form of Marxism is still making an impact on our government officials, as well as the Illuminati, the free Masons, and more recent organizations such as, the Builder-burg group, the counsel on foreign relations, the trilateral commission, the Federal reserve bank, etc. in order to see the head of the snake, we must look at the power structures of the world. Then we can begin to understand the organizations set up by the the devil and his advocates. All of these power structures lead back to Rome, so one could make the blanket statement that the Catholic Church is the great whore of the earth. However, that does not mean all of it’s people are of the devil, even though it’s organizations may well be.

]]> By: Pia Connors http://bomgroupies.wordpress.com/2008/01/02/1-nephi-14-who-belongs-to-the-church-of-the-devil/#comment-1331 Pia Connors Sat, 15 Aug 2009 18:33:15 +0000 http://bomgroupies.wordpress.com/2008/01/02/1-nephi-14-who-belongs-to-the-church-of-the-devil/#comment-1331 I think it is pretty obvious why our leaders stay away from pointing out exactly who is of the Church of God and who is of the church of the devil. WHile I do not doubt their capacity to discern that perfectly, I think it would make the Saints self righteous to go around speculating or pronouncing such hideous judgments. We can judge fruits, we do not need to judge people. I think it is pretty obvious why our leaders stay away from pointing out exactly who is of the Church of God and who is of the church of the devil. WHile I do not doubt their capacity to discern that perfectly, I think it would make the Saints self righteous to go around speculating or pronouncing such hideous judgments. We can judge fruits, we do not need to judge people.

]]> By: Pia Connors http://bomgroupies.wordpress.com/2008/01/02/1-nephi-14-who-belongs-to-the-church-of-the-devil/#comment-1329 Pia Connors Sat, 15 Aug 2009 18:29:00 +0000 http://bomgroupies.wordpress.com/2008/01/02/1-nephi-14-who-belongs-to-the-church-of-the-devil/#comment-1329 "t is an unfortunate but an everlasting thruth that man can not subject God to change." I agree with your comments up until this point. It is unfortunate that man tries to change God into his own image, but it is not unfortunate that he fails to, because it is precisely in God's unchanging nature that we find our greatest assurance that we can place perfect faith and trust in HIm. I think sometimes we think we must attain to that kind of faith before we can merit His blessings, and we forget that faith is a divine gift , activated by sincere desire and humbly confessing our need. I hope my comments are helpful. “t is an unfortunate but an everlasting thruth that man can not subject God to change.”
I agree with your comments up until this point. It is unfortunate that man tries to change God into his own image, but it is not unfortunate that he fails to, because it is precisely in God’s unchanging nature that we find our greatest assurance that we can place perfect faith and trust in HIm. I think sometimes we think we must attain to that kind of faith before we can merit His blessings, and we forget that faith is a divine gift , activated by sincere desire and humbly confessing our need. I hope my comments are helpful.

]]> By: azubuike http://bomgroupies.wordpress.com/2008/01/02/1-nephi-14-who-belongs-to-the-church-of-the-devil/#comment-1325 azubuike Thu, 06 Aug 2009 02:09:08 +0000 http://bomgroupies.wordpress.com/2008/01/02/1-nephi-14-who-belongs-to-the-church-of-the-devil/#comment-1325 I do appriciate all the resonable contributions regarding the subject of God almighty,especially as it relates to his relationship with mankind.However this subject matter requres more than an interlectual approch;infact, it demands and commands a more deeper revelation and aceeptation of God's own point of view(the perfect will of God) rather than man's limited judgement(self will).In a true quest for almighty God,and the perfect understanding which is his exclusive preserve :the first foundation must be faith;and faith is more of God than man.more believe than doubt.It is an unfortunate but an everlasting thruth that man can not subject God to change. I do appriciate all the resonable contributions regarding the subject of God almighty,especially as it relates to his relationship with mankind.However this subject matter requres more than an interlectual approch;infact, it demands and commands a more deeper revelation and aceeptation of God’s own point of view(the perfect will of God) rather than man’s limited judgement(self will).In a true quest for almighty God,and the perfect understanding which is his exclusive preserve :the first foundation must be faith;and faith is more of God than man.more believe than doubt.It is an unfortunate but an everlasting thruth that man can not subject God to change.

]]> By: kwalden http://bomgroupies.wordpress.com/2008/01/02/1-nephi-14-who-belongs-to-the-church-of-the-devil/#comment-1317 kwalden Thu, 29 Jan 2009 18:50:09 +0000 http://bomgroupies.wordpress.com/2008/01/02/1-nephi-14-who-belongs-to-the-church-of-the-devil/#comment-1317 This is what I think it means, Walden 3:5 You're right, this scripture indicates that the covenant people include 2 groups. saints of the Church of the Lamb: Members of the church; covenant people; the house of Israel whether LDS or not. It also indicates that this was the group (the House of Israel) which was scattered. This is what I think it means, Walden 3:5

You’re right, this scripture indicates that the covenant people include 2 groups.

saints of the Church of the Lamb: Members of the church;
covenant people; the house of Israel whether LDS or not. It also indicates that this was the group (the House of Israel) which was scattered.

]]> By: Charlie http://bomgroupies.wordpress.com/2008/01/02/1-nephi-14-who-belongs-to-the-church-of-the-devil/#comment-1316 Charlie Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:16:50 +0000 http://bomgroupies.wordpress.com/2008/01/02/1-nephi-14-who-belongs-to-the-church-of-the-devil/#comment-1316 Question: in the 14th verse of 1st Nephi ch. 14 when it say's " and I Nehpi beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the Church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lamb, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth. Does this verse refer to two separate groups of people? It appears that there are two different groups spoken of in this verse, and if so, can anyone distinguish them for me? Question: in the 14th verse of 1st Nephi ch. 14
when it say’s ” and I Nehpi beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the Church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lamb, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth. Does this verse refer to two separate groups of people? It appears that there are two different groups spoken of in this verse, and if so, can anyone distinguish them for me?

]]> By: isaiahsfan http://bomgroupies.wordpress.com/2008/01/02/1-nephi-14-who-belongs-to-the-church-of-the-devil/#comment-1270 isaiahsfan Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:36:56 +0000 http://bomgroupies.wordpress.com/2008/01/02/1-nephi-14-who-belongs-to-the-church-of-the-devil/#comment-1270 A treatment of this was over at Meridian today. "In other words, there are two great cities — Zion and Babylon — and we decide every day of our lives which to live in. This means that we cannot and must not identify the “great and abominable church” with one or another specific organization. It is all Babylon, and is found in innumerable organizations. In Nephi’s time, the word “church” did not exist in its modern sense; he probably used the Hebrew word yahad, which meant something like “unity” or “society” or “brotherhood.” The great and abominable system of things is above all a business devoted to the gratification of human pride; it is actually not so much a particular church as a state of the heart." (<a href="http://www.ldsmag.com/gospeldoctrine/bom/080116bom4.html" rel="nofollow">GD Lesson by Breck England</a>) Go read the full article! A treatment of this was over at Meridian today.

“In other words, there are two great cities — Zion and Babylon — and we decide every day of our lives which to live in.

This means that we cannot and must not identify the “great and abominable church” with one or another specific organization. It is all Babylon, and is found in innumerable organizations. In Nephi’s time, the word “church” did not exist in its modern sense; he probably used the Hebrew word yahad, which meant something like “unity” or “society” or “brotherhood.”

The great and abominable system of things is above all a business devoted to the gratification of human pride; it is actually not so much a particular church as a state of the heart.”

(GD Lesson by Breck England) Go read the full article!

]]> By: Justin http://bomgroupies.wordpress.com/2008/01/02/1-nephi-14-who-belongs-to-the-church-of-the-devil/#comment-1252 Justin Wed, 09 Jan 2008 04:44:41 +0000 http://bomgroupies.wordpress.com/2008/01/02/1-nephi-14-who-belongs-to-the-church-of-the-devil/#comment-1252 Saying that all good people of every faith are included in the Church of the Lamb sounds no different than traditional Protestant doctrine that the Church of Jesus Christ is just an amalgamation of all "true believers". But we know that a tangible Church of Jesus Christ does exist that you either are or are not a member of. However, I don't think it is quite as simple as LDS vs. everyone else. Mainly I think the battle lines haven't quite been drawn yet. There still exists middle-ground for many good people to stand on. But as time goes on...that middle-ground is going to get smaller and smaller. Saying that all good people of every faith are included in the Church of the Lamb sounds no different than traditional Protestant doctrine that the Church of Jesus Christ is just an amalgamation of all “true believers”.
But we know that a tangible Church of Jesus Christ does exist that you either are or are not a member of.
However, I don’t think it is quite as simple as LDS vs. everyone else.
Mainly I think the battle lines haven’t quite been drawn yet. There still exists middle-ground for many good people to stand on. But as time goes on…that middle-ground is going to get smaller and smaller.

]]> By: isaiahsfan http://bomgroupies.wordpress.com/2008/01/02/1-nephi-14-who-belongs-to-the-church-of-the-devil/#comment-1249 isaiahsfan Sun, 06 Jan 2008 15:23:54 +0000 http://bomgroupies.wordpress.com/2008/01/02/1-nephi-14-who-belongs-to-the-church-of-the-devil/#comment-1249 Great comments, Nathan, thank you for joining us! Great comments, Nathan, thank you for joining us!

]]> By: NathanG http://bomgroupies.wordpress.com/2008/01/02/1-nephi-14-who-belongs-to-the-church-of-the-devil/#comment-1248 NathanG Sun, 06 Jan 2008 15:01:46 +0000 http://bomgroupies.wordpress.com/2008/01/02/1-nephi-14-who-belongs-to-the-church-of-the-devil/#comment-1248 The only categorization I would stress is that we should not assume that membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints equals belonging to the church of the Lamb of God. Assuming that the two are equivalent leads us to pridefulness and prevents us from reflecting on whether our desires allign with those of the church of the devil or those of the church of the Lamb of God. Unless we're certain which side we are on, the question of who else belongs to the church of the Lamb of God may become a distraction. On a similar line of questioning, what does it mean to be an enemy to God? We will often hear members of the church kind of justifying their actions as "their natural man tendencies", but the natural man is an enemy to God. Is an enemy only someone actively fighting against God, or are we being an enemy when we are hanging on to our sins or when we are unwilling to fulfill our assignments. Should all good people be included in the church of the Lamb of God? Our conclusions really won't affect their judgment by God, but it will affect how we view them. If excluding them from this group leads us to look down on them, then the exclusion is detrimental (and we should reassess ourselves to see if we are really with God). If the exclusion of these good people instills in us a greater sense of urgency to rescue these good people who are not part of the church of the Lamb of God because they don't know where to find it, the the exclusion is beneficial. The only categorization I would stress is that we should not assume that membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints equals belonging to the church of the Lamb of God. Assuming that the two are equivalent leads us to pridefulness and prevents us from reflecting on whether our desires allign with those of the church of the devil or those of the church of the Lamb of God. Unless we’re certain which side we are on, the question of who else belongs to the church of the Lamb of God may become a distraction.

On a similar line of questioning, what does it mean to be an enemy to God? We will often hear members of the church kind of justifying their actions as “their natural man tendencies”, but the natural man is an enemy to God. Is an enemy only someone actively fighting against God, or are we being an enemy when we are hanging on to our sins or when we are unwilling to fulfill our assignments.

Should all good people be included in the church of the Lamb of God? Our conclusions really won’t affect their judgment by God, but it will affect how we view them. If excluding them from this group leads us to look down on them, then the exclusion is detrimental (and we should reassess ourselves to see if we are really with God). If the exclusion of these good people instills in us a greater sense of urgency to rescue these good people who are not part of the church of the Lamb of God because they don’t know where to find it, the the exclusion is beneficial.

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